Adam Levy: 00:02
Hello. I’m Adam Levy, and this is Mind Matters: Academia’s Mental Health Crisis, a podcast from Nature Careers.
In this episode, we’re discussing burnout. Most all academics share something in common, passion for what they do. But this passion for research and the drive to achieve as much as possible can combine to create a situation where workloads weigh heavy.
And for many the situation can build to a breaking point where the pressure to always do more clashes with our very real human limitations.
In a moment, we’ll hear from an expert on what leads to burnout and the steps that can and should be taken to address it.
But first I wanted to hear Kelly Korreck’s story. Kelly is an astrophysicist working at It’s about Stardust, a company focused on engaging women in STEM,
In 2023 she penned a column in Nature’s careers section titled: How I managed my intense burnout.
But before she reached this breaking point, she was working on NASA’s Parker Solar Probe, the mission to touch the sun. I asked her how she felt in her work at this point in the lead up to the pandemic in 2020
Kelly Korreck: 01:24
My career was really going very, very well, and very busy.
I was working on a major mission that included lots of talks, operating with Mission data, trying to get the data out to the public.
And as well as mentoring graduate students, going to conferences, kind of doing all of the typical things that one would think of in terms of a research career.
And honestly, it was pretty good and pretty overwhelming thinking back on it, as to how much travel, how much time I was spending doing all of those things and really trying to make a difference.
Adam Levy: 02:03
So that’s kind of how things were in the run up to 2020.
But then, of course, for everyone, things changed in 2020. Can you explain how your work shifted as the pandemic and the effects of the pandemic, began?
Kelly Korreck: 02:16
It really changed the way I worked. The things that I realized I enjoyed most about my job was that one- on-one teaching, the public speaking, being with large groups of people and getting them excited about space science and astrophysics. And all those were shut down due to the pandemic.
So it really took a toll. And very quickly it became really hard to work because there was just none of the joy that I experienced previously. Initially, my thoughts were all to internalize about it.
I thought it was my fault and that I was an imposter, right? I had gotten to this level, and I just wasn’t good enough, and that was the issue.
Adam Levy: 02:59
Can you describe how that actually affected your mental state?
Kelly Korreck: 03:04
My mental state was really rough during the pandemic. I mean, it was rough for everyone, but I just remember that day where basically no-one could do any right in my mind, and I was angry and irritable.
And this had been going on for a few weeks, but that Monday was just particularly bad, that everyone annoyed me, and any sound sounded like nails on a chalkboard, and I just felt very agitated.
And so that mental state just, it was a really bad situation. I knew something had to change, because this was just not sustainable.
Adam Levy: 03:40
How were you able to identify that need to change? Because I guess often when we’re in the middle of something, it can be hard to get that kind of perspective.
Kelly Korreck: 03:48
Right. There were little clues, probably even for a year or two prior to the pandemic, even starting in terms of things like always being irritable about certain topics, the fact that I just couldn’t stand down and I didn’t enjoy my work because someone was asking me, “Oh, you do this great work. Aren’t you all excited about this?”
And I was like, “No, I am not.”
And so admitting that to myself was kind of the first step. And then I sought professional help after that, because I was like, well, perhaps this is depression. What is the real underlying cause, because I’m not a medical doctor. I talked to one, one counsellor, and she told me I was burnt out.
And I said, “No, that’s not the answer.”
And found another one, and they told me I was burnt out. And I was like, All right, maybe this is a thing. And then, and then I took two doctors and then another doctor at my employee like the employee resources, that said, “Yes, you are burnt out. You need to take time off.” But I was like, “Well, I guess three, if all three of you agree, I guess I should take some time off.”
Adam Levy: 04:54
Yeah, it’s always important that we have statistical significance when we’re making big changes. What was actually behind that. What was the feeling you had when you first heard the words burnout in connection to what you were going through?
Kelly Korreck: 05:06
My first denial of burnout was I was too successful to be burnt out. I mean, I had all of the things I had wanted. So why? It just couldn’t possibly be it
I was, in some ways, enjoying parts of this, the again, the constant travel, the being around giving talks, the being around people, mentoring students. I was enjoying all this.
How could this burn out? And I think that comes again from the imposter syndrome saying that these were all things that I was supposed to do, and I was able to do it. So if I admitted to myself that this was too much, that I would be an imposter.
Adam Levy: 05:49
But once you had that understanding that you were going through burnout, how did you approach your response to that?
Kelly Korreck: 05:57
I was able to take two months off, which is really a privilege. And I really approached it as a project. You know, I think in my heart, I’m a project manager for these spacecrafts, and I just applied it to my life.
And was like, “All right, we’re gonna tackle burnout like a project. First of all, delegate things that you know you can’t do, and then figure out a way and a path forward.”
And, you know, everyone was telling me I needed to rest. So I started researching rest.
As you know, the researcher in me is, is always there, right? Like, okay, well, rest, I need to find all the articles on rest and all the most research on rest, so I can figure that out.
Now, again, part of this was I should have just rested, or could have just rested, but decided to, you know, learn more about rest and what the brain and body needs.
You know, really resting my senses and some of the physical sleep, but also mental stimulation in ways that is another form of rest.
So things like, I took up painting, was able to go on long walks, all those things to get rest.
So I really approached it as a project and tried to find my way through it.
Adam Levy: 07:05
And was the project successful when you did go back to work, did you feel like you were kind of starting afresh. Or did you still feel like you had to be a bit careful with yourself?
Kelly Korreck: 07:15
When I went back to work, I definitely felt much better. But there was still the carefulness, because your environment affects you so much, right?
And in some ways, I was going back into that environment where I had felt all these feelings and kind of had difficulties in terms of setting boundaries with my work.
And so I was a little hesitant at that time. You know, I reached out to some mentors to figure out kind of what was next, because I knew that doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
So, you know, trying something different so that just didn’t happen.
And I was very lucky that one of my mentors was able to point me to a rotation that was similar to my job, but different enough in terms of a little more of the administration, as well as focusing really on those space weather effects and helping and mentoring folks from underrepresented groups. And my time away. Those were the two things that I really wanted to do.
I had accreted a lot of various tasks while I was in my other position, and it was time to let a lot of those go and really just focus in on two projects instead of, you know, 20 to 30 projects.
Adam Levy: 08:27
We’re now speaking, I guess, around four years on from the events you were describing. So can you give us, I suppose, the latest update? How do you feel in yourself and in your career at this point?
Kelly Korreck: 08:37
Yes, I was reflecting on this when we started talking, and I want to say there is life after burnout, and that’s something I think is really important for folks to to realize. And it is a continual process.
You know, I find myself at times, kind of slipping back into some of those patterns, but I also catch myself now much faster, be like, Oh, nope. That’s, you know, not mine or I need to ask for help on this and evaluate it that way and be like, hey, is this really worth giving up time with my family? You know, I do have a new job at this point in time, and it really is fulfilling.
And you know, there were times when I saw those, those glimmers of burnout, and I was like, nope, but now I know how to rest. I know how to help my team rest. So it’s a very different place. It’s much more solid ground, but now gaining more confidence with being able to navigate living without burnout. Do you
Adam Levy: 09:34
have any advice for others on I suppose, both how to avoid burnout in the first place, but also how to identify it and act on it, if, if they do end up burning out,
Kelly Korreck: 09:44
What I would suggest is to really take a look at where your values are and what’s aligning with them.
And working as much as you can. And I understand that we all have, you know, outside influences in terms of needing jobs to provide for our families and for housing, and as well as just our own, our own self, self-fulfillment.
But like, how do these things align? And if you are being consistently upset or tired or working longer hours and not enjoying things, how can you change that? What help can you get? Is there, is there some medical help that that’s needed in terms of a counsellor? Is there a coach that you need?
Is there even just going for a walk every day, you know, finding new habits? Is there an online app that can help you, any, you know, anything like that.
Now, I’m not a medical doctor, so the first thing I would say is, is seek out the advice of a counsellor as to what they see, and there is a path forward, but you are going to have to do things differently, and mourning the loss of what we kind of thought our lives could be or our careers could be, and being able to know that there’s opportunities here.
There’s opportunities to get to know yourself better. What you have your own autonomy over is to figure out how to get out of that, how to move on from that.
You know, one of the other pieces of advice that convinced me again to get that rest was like, Well, you could have a heart attack in the next few years because of the way that you’re so burnt out. And on average, folks at work forget your name within 18 days of you leaving.
So your family would be very, very much affected by this. But for the most place, your workplace would get on with with life within a month. Is it worth that to to keep going, to keep going at that burnout pace? And I was like, “Nope, that convinces me that, you know, I need to take care of myself.”
Adam Levy: 11:44
Of course, avoiding or even managing burnout might feel to some like a burden on top of all the other burdens that they’re dealing with. On the other hand, what can other academics around someone who’s struggling, or indeed, other academic institutions do better to support people and prevent burnout and support people who are going through burnout.
Kelly Korreck: 12:07
You wouldn’t tell someone who’s in a car accident that they should go and perform surgery on themselves, right?
So we have to figure out how to find that support network that you need. One of the things that really helped me was folks who would just sometimes appear with dinner, doing those things that just help you out, kind of without asking. And you know, especially for academics and the academic setting, figuring out ways to lessen burden and lessen the hurdles it takes to get to help.
So is there a way that your employee assistance programme can give a seminar and reach folks more easily so they know who to contact?
Is there a way, also in your culture, to make sure that reward systems are laid out such that you don’t have to do unfunded service work at a such a high level, so that you do have time to take off as as a workplace and as a leader.
How can you both set an example as to taking time off and really being off, right? Not the like, Oh, I’ll check my phone while I’m on vacation making those assumptions very clear and spoken instead of unspoken. Really do help set up a non toxic and open work workplace where folks can know what’s expected and so they can deal with it and navigate the situation a little bit better?
Adam Levy: 13:39
Do you have any hopes then for how we can change, I suppose, stigma and also attitudes around burnout in the future.,
Kelly Korreck: 13:47
Well, ever since the article was published, I’ve been approached a lot by various folks who are talking about it. And I think talking about it is the first place to remove that stigma.
The second place to remove the stigma is coming from leadership in terms of it doesn’t penalize folks for taking the time to prevent burnout, as well as if they if they get to burn out, how to get them on track for living a life that that they enjoy.
Because, again, acknowledging that things might have to be different, but different doesn’t have to be bad, right? Different can be innovative. What if we were able to work different hours or different places?
I mean, the pandemic proved we could work different hours in different places and still be connected in a different way, or we could connect better and come up with more innovative solutions.
So I do see hope, and I think there does need to be a conscious effort made to change some of the culture which is going to help everyone, whether you’re going towards burnout or not?
Adam Levy: 14:53
That was Kelly Korreck.
Kelly’s personal experiences shed light on what can lead to burnout and what individuals and and institutions can do differently.
But our next interviewee has worked with burnout, both as a professional and through her personal experiences.
Desiree Dickerson is a clinical psychologist and consultant in academic mental health living in the Valencia region in Spain.
In fact, we heard from Desiree in the first episode of this series, where she explained the particular aspects of academia that can challenge our mental health.
As part of our conversation, I asked her what burnout is and what factors can lead us to this point
Desiree Dickerson 15:36
Burnout doesn’t come with a clinical diagnosis. Unfortunately, at the moment, it’s considered like defined by the WHO as some chronic workplace stress.
So it is about being exposed to a persistent level of stress that arguably often feels inescapable, which is part of the reason why it’s so so severe, why we tend to burn out. We also we don’t just see it in spaces like academia.
You certainly see it in medical doctors. You see it in lawyers often. It feels like you’re running a sprint, but in actual fact, you’re running an ultramarathon, if you like, and so obviously you never have the resources, by that I mean like the emotional, the physical, the cognitive, the resources that we need in order to perform at a level that our work demands, but because you’re always sprinting, you’re always haemorrhaging all of that energy, and you’re never able to really sufficiently replenish it to keep and maintain the output.
And I do think that academia exacerbates that dramatically, because there’s such a normalized sense that the stress I feel is simply what it feels like to do academia. I think academia has a huge problem with maintaining a shiny facade.
Somehow, in the ether, every masters student or PhD student that I ever talk to or work with, it’s been impressed upon them that no matter what, the shiny facade should be maintained by.
That means you don’t ask for help, even though you need it. They always have a sense that they should know the answers, even though, of course, they shouldn’t have all the answers, right? The sense that asking for help is a sign of weakness. Asking for help will, you know, lessen my chances or other people’s perceptions of me?
So there’s really this kind of sort of added layer of stress where we can’t say, hey, I need help, which means, if you’re burning out, what we need to do is raise our hand and say, Hey, I’m not coping right now. I really could use some help, or I really think I need to step back, or I really need to change up something, right? But instead of that, we keep going, trying to maintain the shiny facade, and find ourselves very deep in burnout.
And then we find our bodies have to, like our bodies stop us. And I think that’s where academia is really, really, really harming its people.
Adam Levy 17:42
Given that we’re kind of trained to not recognize burnout and then to not raise our hand when we do recognize it. Could you give any tips for researchers on how, I suppose, to spot that they’re approaching this wall?
Desiree Dickerson: 17:56
There’s a way of framing burnout that I really, really, really think is important. Like a first degree burn, second degree burn, third degree burn.
And I really like that kind of analogy, right? That would say that the first degree burn is this just sort of heavily sustained periods of stress, right, tendency towards feeling overwhelmed, right?
But you manage to push through. You manage to to keep going, right? And I think that’s every academics, almost every day for many of us, right?
That’s just just life in academia, I think many would say, which isn’t it is already sort of entering into those positions of burnout. That space is already your body in fight or flight response for sustained periods of time.
That’s not healthy for our systems at all.
Second degree burns, right, is where it’s it becomes chronic, where the levels of stress, stress are persistent and over time, and they don’t abate. In terms of a definition of of burnout, you would need levels of exhaustion, right?
But exhaustion that your morning coffee, or two coffees, or, you know, a double shot espresso doesn’t lift, right?
It is a real sort of bone or numbing kind of exhaustion that you feel. You would see a shift in your engagement, right?
Work starts to become just, just too much in some way. So some of us often have a kneejerk reaction, which is just kind of, you know, what this is going to have to do. This is as good as it’s going to get.
Or you know what, that’s just going to have to wait for tomorrow. And those sorts of thoughts are us just disengaging with our work, right? And that’s not a normal setting for academics at all. We are very engaged, and it’s very meaningful to us.
So that full sort of third degree of burnout is when you are when either your mind or your body, or both start to start to shut down, start to say, hey, you know what? That’s enough.
You don’t have the resources anymore to draw from. You need to go and lie down, or you need to, you know your body really does start to give out. You start to see autoimmune diseases really, really flare up, problems, etc, right? So those would be how you what you’re looking for.
Adam Levy: 20:00
Could you share any accounts that illuminate what that journey to burnout can look like?
Desiree Dickerson 20:07
I can my own right? In COVID, I certainly burnt out, right? You see it in caring professions a lot as well, right? Because, you know, I was already supporting lots of institutions, but certainly with COVID, everybody suddenly went, “Whoa. This is, this is something we have to think about.”
And everybody started reaching out. And of course, how do you say no when somebody else’s needs are in front of you, right?
And I do think that echoes many of the experiences of certainly the faculty that burn out, the postdocs, the those with other people in their charge is, is, “how could I possibly take time off and recover if the people before me need me.”
Often when we help others, we see increased rates of burnout as well. And for me, it was very much just this, this constant sense or phrase that I would utter, yes, but I just need summer to come. Yes, but I just need summer to arrive. And this was like February, probably, and then I have small children at home, so of course, there’s added stresses.
You know that life outside of our work also brings us. I really only gave it its due respect when I found myself, my son would refuse to put his shoes on.
He was, let’s say, four at the time, I think. And I would just be like, “Wow. I got up this morning thinking, right today, I’ve got this. I’m going to do fine.”
And then my son, like losing his mind about not wanting to put shoes on would be enough for me to need to go and sit down and just feel like my whole bucket had been drained for the day.
And that was definitely a third degree burn, if you like, from from the analogy before. But every time I run a workshop with academics in a room, I will have people come to me and say, “Hey, I think I’m burning out.”
But unable or unwilling to acknowledge that that’s what they were experiencing. Because how do you stop right? The fear the sunk cost fallacy, that is, if I take time off now, I might lose everything that I’ve built, but it’s a really misguided right?
There is nice research to show that, at least in doctoral students, those that do take a hiatus because they needed it, are more likely to come back and finish, not less likely.
But there is that kind of standing message that if I, gosh, if I walked away from my PhD now for a month to take the recovery I need, maybe I’ll never come back.
And actually, that doesn’t seem to hold within the literature.
Adam Levy: 22:13
Our conversation has, I suppose, focused quite a bit on how we prevent things getting bad in the first place.
But of course, at times, people do burn out.
You know, people do suffer from feelings of depression, of anxiety. What are the steps that individuals should take if they are confronted with these kinds of mental health issues, to seek help, either within themselves or from the systems around them?
Desiree Dickerson: 22:41
There’s an overarching sort of step that we all need to take, and that is to recognize that burnout is not a sign of weakness. Burnout is not a sign of incompetence.
Quite the contrary, most of the time, right? Those that burn out are those that want this, that are giving their everything to this, are working absolutely as much as they can, and long for really good outcomes, right? They’re working incredibly hard.
Our best and brightest burn out. Yet. We have this tendency to think that if I’ve burnt out, it’s because I’m not cut out for this.
And that is not true at all, right? If an athlete sprains their ankle or pulls their hamstring and can no longer, you know, can’t play for three months. We don’t go, “Oh, they’re such a rubbish player.”
No, we say they’ve got an injury and they need help and support. What do they need in terms of support to get them healthy and back on the field?
Yet, in academia, for some reason, we equate burnout, depression, all of these other variables, as weakness or being no lesser than or not as capable as. And that is simply not true.
So I think first and foremost is to repeat ad nauseum to all parties, right, those who are burning out and those who sit above them in the hierarchy who may want to judge them for burning out, is that it has got nothing to do with their capability at all.
And then, I guess the step for the individual themselves is to then, with that in mind, raise your hand and own the space, right?
And unfortunately, that is that is this the step forward in many countries, certainly Europe based, European based countries, you can go to your doctor and you can get a doctor’s certificate that says you need leave, right.
And then you don’t necessarily have to explain yourself should you not want to.
Removing yourself from the stress or in question is necessary, but it’s not sufficient to recover, because a big part of our problem in burning out is all of the belief structures, the headspace, the working practices that we hold that got us here in the first place.
So it is recognizing, you know, in that time that you do and need to take off. It is learning to explore the practices, exploring your thought processes that mean everything has to be perfect. Everything has to be due next day yesterday.
Now it’s also really important to recognize that burnout is a stepping stone to more severe mental health issues, right?
So it is definitely something we need to take seriously. It’s definitely something we want to put our hand up and get the help we need as early on as possible.
Because often then the break required to recuperate fully is proportional to the time you’ve spent in that state of burnout.
As you move yourself away from the stressor in question, your symptoms should begin to alleviate.
If they do not, or if you think that your symptoms are more widely spread, it’s not just work that triggers this level of stress. And then it’s possible that what you’re struggling with is depression.
So please, please put your hand up. Please ask for help. Institutions, lab, bosses, all of us should have the numbers in our phone.
All of us should know the first point, port of call, the you know the first number that you should call, and all of the steps in the pipeline such that we normalize the access of those and of course, if you are sitting above someone, and someone comes to you and says they are burning out, then we have to respect them, right?
What they need is compassion. What they need is time off, which means if you say, “Oh, but you can’t stop now that project is going to you know, what about that student?”
And you layer on all of the thoughts that they are clearly already having, right? You need to be the permission that they perhaps can’t give themselves. So acknowledge that their mental health and wellbeing comes before any project.
Adam Levy: 26:23
Desiree Dickerson there. As both Desiree and Kelly explain, support from those around us makes an immense difference when suffering through something like burnout.
But what happens to academics when the situation is reversed, when instead of support, researchers are forced to deal with harassment for their work or for who they are?
Unidentified source quote: 26:45
And being alone. You know there were times that I felt really scared, and I had my personal information put out there on social media, and so people started contacting me. I had people who threatened me as well.
Adam Levy 26:57
And we’ll be discussing how harassment can impact researchers’ mental health in next week’s episode.
Until then, this has been Mind Matters: Academia’s Mental Health Crisis, a podcast from Nature Careers. Thanks for listening. I’m Adam Levy.
